#224 4-24-19 Is Depression Heroic? Is It Even A Disease?



g'day mate look forward here did youse see that somebody spent three hundred and thirty thousand dollars promoting Ben Shapiro's personal Facebook page over the last year three hundred and thirty thousand just promoting his Facebook page Carla that's that's funny okay let's play a little bit more from firing line December 2 1974 we've got the Jewish author Stanley Isaacson the lapsed Catholic the Irish and John Murray cutter high whose book we will discuss on the book club today with Kevin Michael Grace three religions each religion is sort of a spiritual cradle kind of thing and they're both three aspects of America the American Way of life in general seven okay so Jews are not primarily a religion Jews are primarily a tribe that has its own religion but most members of the tribe don't practice it so this is what John Murray cutter hi Cudahy got a he talking about there absolutely the black revolution had an awful lot to do with it this 1964 it just so happened that the war in sixty-seven abetted it but when when Stokely Carmichael and some of the other black activist leaders were saying you know let's examine our roots and a lot of Americans who were Jewish had never done that they were always embarrassed about the tribalism the unstability and suddenly they started to examine their roots and all of a sudden they found those were pretty terrific you know if you want to play a road game that's the group that can play it and and you now have this fantastic thing where Marty lips at Harvard was telling me about during the last or the October war I would call it the Yom Kippur War except somebody says that that is that is an example of the Jewish lobby having so that is author Stephen Isaac's he published the 1974 book Jews and American politics and on the book club today we will discuss the ordeal of civility so this book by John Mary Cudahy and in his book the ordeal of civility Cudahy explicates the wrenching process of adjusting to modernity experienced by the shtetl Jews of the pale in the 19th and early 20th centuries but to adapt quickly from a tribal culture to a modern Protestant civil culture rather than slowly adjusting over the centuries it is in this context that he locates the efforts of a Jewish intellectuals such as Karl Marx Sigmund Freud and Claude levi-strauss to facilitate the transition by providing a cohesive narrative that attempts to universalize the experience and thus provide an apology to both the in group of Jews in the out group of Gentiles in his 1978 book no offense : civil religion and Protestant taste cudahy argues that Catholic and Jewish intellectuals in America gave up the distinctive religious claims of Catholicism and Judaism in the interests of not offending the Protestant majority cudahy used various intellectual critiques of modernity both conservative and radical as the product of resentment against the more successful enlightened Protestant majority came back to Steven Isaac's here on firing line with the William F Buckley you may be sure actually it was on a Muslim holiday to that the war was an argument yes but the point being at Harvard which when I went there you did not act Jewish one B it was very civil one was very proper one blended into the to the paneled rooms when I walk into the Harvard Club of New York I turned that's why you want all those elections the Health Organization at Harvard in blast was just jammed and the synagogue's and became but I didn't know that we're synagogues at Cambridge but I've been deeply affected by the death of Nipsey Hussle so the most appropriate way I think that I can pay tribute to nipsey is be a song Nipsey come back any kind of fool could see there was something in everything about you Nipsey come back yes the most important person on the globe Nipsey Hussle how could you leave us so quickly let me play a little bit more here from firing line 1974 or even Isaacs and John Murray they just want to be identified as being Jewish that proud of it also and there's no believer like a convert what what do you mean mr. mr. Katya when you talk about the ordeal of what is what it is what are you saying there in your book it seems to be an appropriate moment to bring it out mr. Isaac's having taken the conversation in this direction thank you for taking it it's involved with what people like Robert Merton at Columbia have studied as a kind of role pluralism people come from Europe and they have these identities these nested tribal sort of identities and as they begin assimilating and acculturating and so on they they get divided up against themselves and when they go into the voting booths they're they're more complex they want to vote as an academic at Columbia or a house owner and Huntington or remember the Democratic Party or something like that so they're cross pressured by okay we'll return to the theme of the ordeal of civility on the book club in about two hours but let's begin the show today Kevin Michael Grace you want to discuss depression yes I did I saw something that was tweeted by ariana grande we all know ariana grande we all love her right well apparently at Jim Carrey the Canadian funny man who's no longer funny seems extraordinarily bitter twisted actually he had to put her on to something a statement by a fellow called Jeff Foster who I looked up is a big deal on the depression scene he's written a lot of best-selling books in the self-help genre it goes like this the word depressed can be spoken of as deep rest we can choose to view depression not as a mental illness but as a state of deep rest a spiritual exhaustion that we enter into when we are depressed pressed down by the weight of the false self the mask the mind made story of me we long to stop pretending and express our raw truth to give voice to our secret loneliness our shame our broken hearts boredom and brilliant rage depressions call to truth needs to be listened to and understood not analyzed or medicated away there is no shame in your exhaustion we are all exhausted my love slow down today allow yourself to rest deeply and weep and breathe and begin again now I say our depression is holy it contains the seeds of new life the exclamation points after truth and rage were not added by me they are in the original text I was thinking about this and it seemed to me that the planted axiom in this wisdom from Jeff Foster is that depression is a symptom of repression of the personality and that struck me as being well completely false because we do not see a great deal of repression in today's Western societies we see exactly the opposite we peep we see people unashamed to share everything about their lives no matter how trivial crass embarrassing or shameful it might be now brilliant rage Jeff foster believes we should give voice to our brilliant rage I think this is a dangerous suggestion because rage is destructive normally and depression is holy well you see I suppose this fits in with the the new spirituality that all sorts of things are holy these days but we now we see that depression is one of them I've noticed in recent years speaking especially to Millennials especially to millennial women that it would seem that close to a majority of them are perhaps more claimed to suffer from depression and furthermore they are very eager to let people know about their depression a great many Millennials seem also to be very eager to let you know that they are autistic that they suffer from learning disabilities that they are ADHD there may be others on the list but I have left them out there I'm thinking of this fella called Bob Ray who was formerly Premier of Ontario then later became a big deal in the federal Liberal Party he's been around forever and he's still around educating powerfully and presumably well-paid for some noble cause he's written many times about his depression but his crippling depression now I don't think that he's being exactly honest with us because depression or clinical depression say is characterized by an interest in asper aspects of ordinary life everyday life when people suffer from depression find that they find it literally difficult to get out of bed and once having gotten out of bed have no desire to do anything or to talk to anyone or to think much about anything and occupy their time in repetitive tasks there was another man a famous economist – Julian Simon if I got that name right Luke yes I believe so he also claimed to suffer from crippling depression this man married had a family at an outstanding academic career and won as a public intellectual and again I don't believe that he was being honest with us or the alternate explanation is that no one knows what depression means now the examples that I gave but just a minute ago they're pretty well understood but I think that depression has now become synonymous with simply not just unhappiness but discontent if depression if depression were really shameful the sort of thing that people hide then why are so many people talking about it why do you hear it so often I'm sure I could go to Wikipedia and in a few seconds find out that 30 40 50 percent of Americans or something like that claim to suffer from depression well really if that many people suffer from depression then its normative first of all but also the fact that it's become something a condition that one can boast of tells me that there's something else going on here that it's another manifestation of the way that rootless people find to express express themselves that when they say they are depressed they are saying I live and I well I part from the you know the medical consequences of this which in North America results of 10 in tens of millions of people being doped up for this condition but it also strikes me as more generally being harmful because it gives people an excuse for not just for failures because everyone suffers failures but four of lassitude apathy giving up what do you think of this depression cult loop Wow well this strikes very close to home because someone very close to me suffered from lifelong depression and our lives were shaped around this person seeking help from all sorts of different doctors and medications medical procedures even minor surgeries and somehow two weeks of a month reliably this person would get depressed premenstrual syndrome and would just be very difficult to be around and I'd protest you know I didn't I didn't enjoy this and I would get told well or women are like this and so I think that's a that's an exaggeration but women are definitely higher in neuroticism than men and they meaning to be neurotic means to spend a lot of time mulling over your your negative emotions and so women certainly are far more prone to depression or to you know the blues and and other symptoms of neuroticism my approach to depression and happiness is incredibly plebeian and simple I define happiness as looking forward to tomorrow and I think I've had that definition for 10 20 plus years and it just seems to work it just holds up if you look forward to tomorrow you're a happy guy you may be sad about this of that but if you're looking forward to tomorrow you're fundamentally happy if you are not looking forward to tomorrow you're fundamentally sad so I would I would assume that depressed people are just not looking forward to tomorrow and there's a great saying life is understood backwards but it's lived forwards so if you're looking forward to tomorrow you're going to be that's how you're living you're living looking forward that's that's your orientation that's that is what is suffusing today is is your is your hopes and dreams for tomorrow and if as you look forward you you feel sad and disabling forms of sadness then then you're depressed now I have struggled with you know the low-grade blues or just feeling is of that I was running around in circles probably most of my life it's just like being this kind of low-grade chronic thing that's just kind of under the surface never so I've never experienced depression so that I couldn't go to work so that I couldn't meet an appointment nothing like that that there's never been being a time like that but I've certainly had my times with with the Blues but I think this was also part of we're becoming a society that's increasingly in touch with our feelings we're becoming an increasingly feminized a society where we've been increasingly shaped by psychotherapy and psychotherapeutic terminology and by psychiatry and by this myth that there are these psychiatric drugs which will cure the biological problems behind our mental illness back to you Kevin biological problems I think they're spiritual problems would you agree with me that claiming to suffer from depression has become a kind of widespread humble bragging I don't think of it that way I I know I that's I I just don't see the I don't see the the brag in there like what what are the benefits okay so obviously it's society that's created this dramatic increase in people claiming to suffer from depression because it's become much more socially acceptable and even encouraged so in in your perspective what are the benefits people get out of publicly proclaiming they're depressed well one of them is belonging to a group yeah and we have this crisis of authenticity in society that Christopher lash identified in young people in a book written about 40 years ago that he realized even then that young people have this desperate need to to fit in and to and to also feel that they are unique in some way in fact was rather despairing about that he said he noted and I believe this was 1977 the young people seem to display the kind of characteristics one associates with totalitarian societies now as far as the humble bragging goes okay let's say I'm a you know a good-looking successful wealthy influential powerful person this incites Envy often quite you know even sometimes violent Envy but we have so many people it's you know it starts with the celebrities they all claim to be sick they all claim to be suffering from something or have to have suffered from something my you know my drugs hell my alcohol hell my Lyme disease hell etc etc oh you know I conquered cancer I did this I did that to the extent that for four decades now my reflexive response to this is I don't believe you you're looking for some sort of career comeback you have suffered a lot of bad publicity and you're looking to make people look well on you again or you're simply looking for attention to say that you're unhappy well happiness is not a steady-state I firmly believe this contentless is a steady-state but happiness isn't people struggle through most of their lives and I you know we discussed a a book about this subject Klein's eyes by Russell Hall back which is about a man who's you know looking for happiness and he he finds it he solves a riddle and he realizes that there have been few a few moments in his life where he could said to have been happy but that's not what life is really all about I just get the impression that well it's not an impression it's more of a firm belief actually that people have been poisoned with this idea and oh that they need to be happy are you happy people get asked all the time and oh how are you feeling and this used to be just a convention right now people pour out their feelings and when people started doing that matter action was no no you don't understand this is a rhetorical question you know it's part of being civilized as jean-marie Cudahy would say we're not particularly interested in the answer especially if we don't know you very well no but people think that they have I don't know even a right to be happy right life liberty and the pursuit of happiness but the pursuit of happiness is not enough you want the you want the summit of happiness you want to have captured happy yes I you know and I look at all of the people who are on antidepressant drugs which have been proved not to work I'll clarify they have been proved no more efficacious than st. John's wort or a placebo people will come back and say well they say that you know a medication is as good as a placebo that's not nothing that's true that is not nothing but we know that antidepressants come with severe side effects they inspire what physicians call suicidal ideation which is you start thinking about suicide all the time people on antidepressants often complain that it's if their brain has been replaced apparently this is what Britney Spears has been saying that she was locked up in a psych ward maybe against her will but apparently she's been crammed to the gills with you know goofin Thal for years and she's complaining that she feels like she doesn't have a brain anymore this often has horrendous consequences because people decide desaad Nick Drake died that well you know if the dosage isn't working how about I increase the dosage how about I double the dosage how about I just take the whole bottle maybe that will make a difference and of course um it's not just antidepressants people are put on antipsychotic drugs now there was a phrase was at General Electric I can remember remember the company it became a cliche better living through chemistry and I know that the people who were fond of LSD thought this phrase was very amusing the idea that there are chemical solutions to the problems of life is well it's a demonic idea because there are not you can take drugs which make you feel better a valium and Librium they make people feel better no question about it but then the drug wears off so what are you gonna do you can take drugs so you're gonna be in this artificial state the whole time I I just think that there needs to be some sort of you know reckoning here that there needs to be a dialing back of expectations and also an understanding the different moods have their purposes there are so many people who are now diagnosed as bipolar which is to be called manic depression now yeah I've seen extreme cases of this but a lot of people are diagnosed as bipolar and they exhibit typically human characteristics in at some periods they are very up very active very sort of intellectually interested and at other times they are the opposite of that and I don't there's anything wrong with that at all in fact that this kind of cycle is is closely correlated to high intelligence that people of high intelligence look at the world and look at themselves in a way that people lower intelligence don't to be of higher intelligence is to find more dissatisfaction with oneself and with the world and logically this is going to lead to periods when people are unhappy with themselves and particularly unhappy with the world but almost always the feeling passes and if to conclude if we don't understand the naturalness of feelings anymore and attempt to solve this through the prescription of various kinds of drugs then the underlying conditions cannot be understood or the underlying problem of life cannot be understood you know Joseph Conrad the novelist said that life is not a problem to be solved it is a purpose to be fulfilled life is a spiral staircase and at any time we're going to be in one of four states began to feel helpless we're going to feel lonely we're going to feel competent we're going to feel arrogant and we just keep spiraling through all of these states so one moment you could be feeling arrogant then you could fall break your leg and feel absolutely helpless one moment you could feel lonely and next moment you realize there's something really good that you can be doing and you develop a competency at that part of life and then as you become increasingly competent it will lead to arrogance but we're always going to be spiraling in and out of one of these four states you never graduate from any of them and a couple of additional thoughts on happiness I think if you enjoyed the success of other people you're a happy person if you are enraged by the success other people you in my experience you're always a deeply unhappy person if you enjoy helping other people you're a happy person if that is virtually always a burden to you then you're depressed and I'm thinking about the great toll that this country is play paid for having the pursuit of happiness is that the Declaration of Independence or this has led to just ever-increasing pursuits of individual autonomy from civil rights movement to create a freedom of sexual expression to gay marriage I think there's a straight line between the pursuit of happiness in our founding documents and having gay marriage today because why shouldn't gays be happy why shouldn't gays be entitled to all the privileges of everyone else so we've gotten onto this trajectory of just always granting more and more rights so that people can pursue their happiness it has not worked out well there have got to be higher causes than the pursuit of happiness let me read a little bit from the New York Times today book review mental illness is all in your brain or is it there's a new book out called minder fixes it's about the psychiatric profession in an age of glowing brain scans and plentiful pharmaceuticals can be hard to remember the psychiatrist's not exactly known for their aversion to dispensing medication or once derided for not taking medicine seriously enough it is an Harrington the author reminds us wasn't all that long ago when psychiatrists were pilloried as a bunch of wooly Freudians in thrall to spacious ideas about absent fathers and smothering mothers in her new book mind fixes psychiatry's troubled search for the biology of mental illness Harrington a historian of science at Harvard says that psychiatry is biological turn took place somewhere where around 1980 it was so revolutionary that before the decade was up the professions transform a into a biological discipline seemed complete now there's a good deal of drama contained in that little word seemed what seemed complete actually wasn't Harrington argues as such biological triumphalism began to unravel in the 1990s and 2000 so as kevin michael grace puts a there's never been found a biological basis for mental illness back to you Kevin well yeah as far as psychiatry goes in one of Adam Curtiss documentaries he discusses a crisis this crisis in the psychiatric profession which came about from realization by some psychiatrists that they all they treated were symptoms now I'll get back to that word symptoms later but it occurred to them that they had been unfair to a lot of patients because patients would come to them or would be brought to them or they'd be brought to you know people who'd been arrested institutionalized and these people said things which often sounded objectively crazy but they just dealt with the symptoms without looking at what has happened to this person so that he acts in this way so then they came up with the idea of diagnostic tools and these diagnostic tools became very very popular within the profession but then as Curtis points out a remarkable thing happened that the diagnostic tools leaked out to the general public and people started taking them and started ranking themselves on all these different indices of mental health and it's at that time do you have of this remarkable phenomenon where are people one finding out that they are mentally ill in some way of their own volition and then telling the world about it now this phenomenon is 50 60 years old which you know leads me to the understanding that all this talk about Oh ending the stigma around mental illness what stigma are we talking about people have been speaking about their own mental illness boasting of their own mental illness for decades now I remember Rosalynn Carter Jimmy Carter's wife she took part in a enormous symposium at the University of BC where I worked in 1978 or something like that and she made the extraordinary statement that something like close to half of Americans suffer from some form of mental illness well if that's the case then it's normative isn't it in what sense can we describe it as being an illness now and go ahead and sorry no no you go ahead oh I just love this new book called maybe you should talk to someone it's a book about psychotherapy by a writer and a psychotherapist she's incredibly honest about her own experiences laurie Gottlieb here's an excerpt on in the book she talks about her boyfriend who she was expecting to marry and spend the rest of her life with I thought you wanted to marry me Laurie says pathetically I do want to marry you he says I just don't want to live with a kid but I come with a kid I say my voice getting louder I'm furious that he's bringing this up that he's bringing this up at all you can't order me a la carte like a burger without the fries I think about patients who present ideal scenarios and insist that they can only be happy with that exact situation he didn't drop out a business school to become a writer he'd be my dream guy so I'll break up with him and keep dating hedge fund managers who bore me if the job wasn't across the bridge it would be the perfect opportunity so I'll stay in my dead-end job he's telling you how much I am B my friends career she didn't have a kid I'd marry her certainly we all have our deal-breakers but when patients repeatedly engage in this kind of analysis sometimes I'll say if the Queen had balls she'd be the king if you go through life picking choosing if you don't recognize that the perfect is the enemy of the good you may deprive yourself of joy at first patients are taken aback by my bluntness but ultimately it saves a months of treatment back to you Kevin the enemy is it good which is an exceedingly wise saying which should be drummed into people from a very early age you know if we if we look at this idea of happiness and its opposite depression I think we get an explanation for this phenomenon or one explanation for this phenomenon of kakuni now when we first started hearing this word cocooning what three decades ago or something like that it was typically used with reference to let's say a nuclear family or even simply a couple quickly a man and a woman who preferred to engage with themselves and not engage much with the outside world but now we see this new kind of cocooning of people who don't engage with anybody at least not in the real world they may do a lot of it on the internet but not in the meatspace as the kids like to say and I think this follows from one of the problems of life is that we are dependent upon other people I mean no man is an island yeah it's yeah that's true but there's a few exceptions I'm sure but our happiness if you want to call it that can be not for-loop at any time that lets say your boss who you thought he thought the world of you he says to you uh yeah actually I don't you're fired oh that company that was so strong that you work for that you had invested so much your hopes in oh it's going out of business or laying off half of its half of its workforce that home that you lived in for so long or that that apartment that you loved so much oh the apartments going co-op or the home is being sold you know soul you'll have to go a man and woman who thought you thought loved you or even you know liked you a lot says now no I found someone else or I'm moving on or I'm moving across the country or um you know all sorts of things obviously I could list thousands of things but to the extent that people don't deal with other people they solve themselves that problem and so we have people being increasingly isolated and to the extent that people isolate themselves it means that they become ever less able to deal with random situations I I find it a commonplace now that if I'm waiting in line at some store and the line seems to be taking a lot of time I look around to the people waiting in line and I'll frequently see one or two people who seem on the verge of a violent outburst all because they're forced to wait in line for say five minutes or say that the woman who's at the counter right now insists in paying in exact change as a great many elderly people do I wants me to cashier laugh by saying that's how you know that you've got old and she said how I said you always have to pay in exact change but what motor got leap was saying about you know saving time in therapy it always mystified me when I watch movies or TV shows and people would talk about having been in therapy for years and I thought what are they doing are they you know reconstructing your personality from the ground up you know with the amount of time that you've spent than the money you know you could probably learn to play the classical violin or something you could learn to play the piano at a pretty good level you could learn several foreign languages thomas oz wrote a book called the ethics of psychotherapy and he said he cut all patients off after one year you know if no you know people patients would leave because they thought they'd made progress he said after one year if the patient is there still there he's wasting my time or I'm wasting his but you know we know we know the stories I said what Woody Allen is the most famous one what he's been in therapy for 60 years or something we see well I I spent 10 years in therapy and it didn't it didn't dramatically improve my life but how much it prevented me from plunging even lower is an open question but I'll tell you one very painful reason I spent so many years in therapy is that I went through some dramatic shifts in my life where I lost almost all my friends so when I decided to write about Dennis Prager I lost all friends that I had in common with Dennis Prager which were basically my my whole social circle in Los Angeles I needed someone to talk to so for for many years the most emotionally intense period of my life was the the hour or the two hours that I'd spend in therapy and I was also there were years there where I was just dealing with crisis after crisis after crisis living on the edge of homelessness getting kicked out of my synagogue countering dangerous people in the porn industry threatening to kill me my life was just lurching from crisis to crisis crisis so I think my therapist for helping me to deal with that but therapy did not get my life on track that that took some pro step programs but at least I think it helped me it helped pull me back from the precipice of sociopath II my therapist for a while there was was afraid that I was verging on being a sociopath and it was it was a it was a mirror to me it was somewhat confrontational and I had to articulate things and and and confront myself in a way that I just wasn't getting in in daily life I haven't been in therapy now for over over three years and and I don't feel like I need it right now so kayo you had some thoughts on mental illness yeah it seems to me like theory advanced by Scott Alexander was that a big part of the efficacy of therapy is simply that you have someone who's relatively high status tending to you for a while and we're social animals and were especially status conscious animals so the fact that someone was high status thinks that you're worth the time it is a big thing in and of itself and I think that's why you see these chronic therapy goers because they need that in their life they need someone to be tending to them it's one paying attention to them who is a high status individual who they respect I think that it's become like oh I hear like all these different things from different therapists about what is a effective about what what is best practices and I find it frankly bewildering and you know the rock has been simply understanding it as being in this sort of class this growing class of occupations which just involve basically paying attention to people like strip everything else away it's about paying attention to people people have this hunger for for personal contact that there's a great loneliness epidemic in our modern society and this is perhaps a way able to address it but also the mental illness thing mental illness is going to be much more prominent in our society because we've dispensed with the with the institutions largely we don't have this sort of ability to send people away long term as easily as we used to be able to do it and we have we live longer and it's a lot easier to survive so people who are mentally ill are just around longer than they ever would have been in the past so so we can just expect to see more of that as just our medicine improves you're going to see more and more exotic forms of humans because you know what is survivable has just exploded in terms of its range so that's my take on mental illness in the modern age and that quick three three more benefits and I feel like I got from therapy my my therapist pulled some important strings for me my going to therapy calmed my need for attention is so however histrionic Li I was acting out on my blog it did provide some sort of calming effect also we knew a lot of people in common and so my therapist would kind of direct me back into reality I've tended to waste much of my life in fantasy also it really helped my writing I think that I got a much clearer understanding of myself and of other people and John Marie Curie he has a very funny statement about psychoanalysis in his firing line episode where he says that it's a 50-minute break from civility and you could just go back to being Hamish you you could just go back to being Jewish so back to you Kevin well from the the book review in the New York Times I found this sentence to be amusing anticipated discoveries in the biology of mental illness vigorously hiked before they even arrive never panned out all of psychiatrist diagnostic categories are still based on observations of clinical symptoms rather than biological markers of disease this is an astonishing confession it really is because what it means is that mental illness is just a metaphor it is not a disease it is not a disease not in the way that we understand other types of disease now various interest groups and you've come across them it's unescapable and major companies are involved in especially the pharmaceutical companies is that it disease is a disease is a disease well if all you can find are the symptoms then no sorry that doesn't work there are symptoms of you know a heart disease arteriosclerosis diabetes etc etc you know there are precursors before the disease actually manifest itself this is the point that Thomas has made his book in his schizophrenia his book on schizophrenia there are just symptoms there is nothing else whatsoever someone begins babbling begins babbling about conspiracies or saying that people are trying to get them or that you're trying to get them or you know what they're up to that sort of thing and oh this is not the same person it was before that's brought something else which is very significant that you don't hear about this anymore and you know i-i've lived through a life of hearing scientists say that various problems had been solved or that we knew something now definitively that we didn't know before and over over again I found out that they don't admit they were wrong they just stopped talking about it and hope that people forget that mental illness was a brain disease now of course there's a problem here because the mind I'm not gonna say that the mind doesn't exist I'm just going to say that it's not something that can be measured there is nothing scientific about the mind so oh it's all in the brain chemicals so zazz decided to get a hold of all of I should mention that he was a psychiatrist he was a doctor doctor to get a hold of all the text books on pathology all the latest text books pathology that since schizophrenia was a brain disease and it was asserted definitively that it was a brain disease so obviously pathologists would have been slicing up the brains of schizophrenics to you know to find out more about this brain chemistry and he found out there was nothing in the pathology textbooks at all this was just something that was asserted what came from that was that oh you know we can change brain chemistry by giving people certain drugs so let's give these people certain drugs and see what happens that's essentially what what has happened with the treatment of mental illness Bruce Charlton made an interesting point that the difference between the old treatment and the new treatment it is that what the 50 60 70s doctors gave people drugs like valium and Librium valium and Librium make people feel good antidepressants make people feel bad so arguably the only difference between the treatment then and now is the treatments didn't work but now they make people feel worse than they felt already now it's going back to what Kyle said a minute ago you left something out which is the reason that we're going to see more mental illness in however you wanted to find that in the future than we have seen in the past is because of scale is because our lives are becoming insane that we're living in ways that people are not meant to live you know for instance this mania for being alone man is a social animal but apparently we don't need communities anymore we only need ourselves you know Whitney Houston said to love yourself that's the highest virtue that's the greatest love of all so we need ourselves and I guess we need a connection to the Internet that's all we need this is obviously deeply deeply unhealthy but since choice is now considered to be the highest virtue then how are we to say that people shouldn't strive to be lonely they shouldn't strive to cut themselves off from everyone else they should strive to avoid all entanglements which limit their personal utility as a mental health activist let me share a little more of my story so in the year 2000 my family offered me an opportunity to see a psychiatrist for three hours she came back with the following diagnosis Luke has a personality disorder of the history on Ignacio cystic type Luke is very dependent upon other people for his identity as a person yes poor identity integration and poor self-esteem Luke is always looking for mirroring it's called narcissistic supply that is to say Luke is always looking for external validation of himself as a person he needs other people to tell him who he is however because it is not possible for people to mirror him all the time he gets disappointed and this can turn to envy Luke may not be conscious of the fact that he is very envious of his family they seem to have things he would like to have but does not have this leads to Luke fluctuating between on the one hand valuing people such as his family putting them down and on the other hand idealizing people such as dennis prager Luke tends to make unreasonable demands of people who are eventually driven to setting limits on him Luke takes this very badly Luke needs five to ten years of insight oriented psychotherapy it was the falling out with Dennis Prager that caused him to go to therapy while Luke has a lot of therapy speak he may not really understand the concepts involved Luke's therapist did well to keep him in therapy for 15 months that is unusual for someone with Luke's narcissistic condition as such people often leave off therapy when it becomes too confronting Lou will not continue therapy that is confrontational particularly in the early stages Luke will continue to do what he is doing to satisfy his needs until such time as the rewards the reinforcements are outweighed by the negative effects of the same the punishment then he may do something about getting his life on track the negative effects of his current behavior that no one will have a long-term relationship with him no matter how saying they are people cannot live without getting something back and Luke is always taking without giving anything back second any decent woman who looked at his website would be immediately repulsed Luke has a complicated personality he has mood instability perhaps mild cyclothymia his personality type is prone to this Luke becomes very focused on one thing when he is not getting the desired rewards he drops it and moves on Luke may have had a some kind of post viral illness but then the illness took on a life of its own it is common for people to retreat into this sick role because it is a way of failing in a face-saving way Luke was failing because of the lack of significant relationships in his life Luke in his current state would not be successful in employment Luke wants immediate results and if he does not get them then he does not want a bar of it Luke does not have a bipolar condition his reaction to the medication nadia was purely psychological as that drug does not work overnight the same with the homeopathic treatment one pill does not make any noticeable difference Luke is unlikely to remain our medication and that is only tinkering with the fringe of the problem Luke is obsessed with sex he is not well integrated his rules are situational and he justifies things Luke is capable of being exploitive Luke family should have firm boundaries we should stay off his website we should set limits on his unreasonable behavior Luke has tunnel vision has difficulty seeing things as others see it he is only looking for mirroring Luke has demonstrated the capacity at times not to put his immediate gratification ahead of everything for example taking his rabbi in his synagogue off his website when requested he respected those involved did not want to lose a relationship with them so he has the capacity to learn from his experiences Luke has a poor sense of identity he's not well integrated he has no sense of stuff therefore he's very changeable in different circumstances so I got that I immediately recognized the truth of it and did send me back to psychotherapy I also got on the medication lithium in 2002 so while I was not bipolar I I was approaching bipolar I was just my life was kind of soaring and then crashing soaring crashing snoring crashing getting on the lithium even me out did put on about an extra 15 pounds which I did not like but on the other hand I didn't have those soaring highs and crashing lows that were screwing up my life back to you Kevin don't know quite what to say Maria diagnosis Luke ah my own amateur diagnosis is that you seem to be completely at ease in confessing things about yourself that other people would bury in their backyard [Laughter] yeah yeah I just know the bit about you need five to ten years would that have been with the person who diagnosed you know because that the the psychiatrist was in Brisbane Australia and she she knew that I lived in Los Angeles oh okay all right that's to say that they know that you would need X amount of time it seems rather extraordinary to me actually it reminds me of like the sales tactics of the best sales people I've ever met and they always talked about how you needed X like months weeks years of of a service and they would never be satisfied with you know you leaving when you felt okay it would always always about you don't need this amount of time and then you'll be okay so yeah I mean I think it's probably some sort of practice that's evolved in order to keep people in business but I think that it's reprehensible I think that you should you should evaluate the patient constantly when they're when they're fine you you discharge them you don't try to keep them in no I mean something else that happens and this is you know I told you that Thomas oz had is one year rule is that most people only have so many stories that they can tell about themselves and then they run out of the stories and they begin repeating the stories alternately they'll come in with a new story and if if the psychiatrist or the psychologist is any good he'll say you understand that this is the same thing you were telling me a month ago no it's not well actually it's very very similar because if you replace person X with person Y you'll see that it's virtually identical or if you replace you know your job with your car then it's virtually identical that you know I the idea of paying some $75 an hour was the figure that I heard on TV in the movies when I was growing up I wonder how much it is today $75 an hour when I heard that figure I thought this is obviously something that rich people do because say back in the 1960s $75 could buy you a lot of stuff there were many people that was their month's rent $75 so rich people paying people to listen to them I thought that that's obviously a large part of this game I paid between 25 and $60 an hour and I paid the lower rate when I was working with people who are getting their hours in to be licensed as a psychotherapist and according to at least one study I've seen that it's the the new therapists are actually more effective than the older ones that they care more and that's something that I noticed about when I was dealing with these young therapists to be who are getting in their required 3,000 hours or so that they they were incredibly dedicated to the task and yeah 25 to $60 an hour it wasn't wasn't exorbitant ly expensive and pretty much everyone can find therapy at that lower rate if they're willing to to work with people who are getting accredited and I noticed a lot of people say oh no you know I need a therapist with 10 years 20 years experience no not really these trainees generally speaking I think they're even more effective than the experienced therapists in my experience well what we see now you're aware of this phenomenon life-coach yes well anyone can be a life coach and there was a woman that I knew who was a journalist and I dated her for a while and I found out that some years later she had she'd moved to where I was living and she'd set up as a life coach and given the things that she had told me about her thoughts they had other people I thought no you want to pay so you want to pay someone else with this woman not to be your life coach because this woman this woman was really good-looking and really intelligent and good at her job and she was just possessed with rage I just she scared me and but you know then like Oh anyone can be a life coach you know my therapist on and off for 10 years she became a life coach because therapists have a hard time making a living so that's why there a lot of them are also becoming life coaches ok Astra you have some thoughts sorry about that yeah sorry I took a while to join going back to how the medications work I kind of want to describe the basic theory which is that the SSRIs they're kind of similar psychedelics that they're working on the same receptors like serotonin receptors except instead of like MDMA or LSD which are targeting it for just a few hours and they have a profound effect it's flooding those receptors with serotonin you know for years basically causing the cells to have less receptor sites and person has less ability to feel emotion essentially and then with the the newer medications the antipsychotics which I believe the the newer ones you know they can be charging a thousand or thousands of dollars a month so it's not like a trivial thing for insurance companies and employers those blocks the dopamine receptors so I guess that levels out people's mood makes people hungry and gain weight stuff messes with people's hormones stuff like that I had a girlfriend who was on five different psychiatric communications and that's not uncommon because that modify that the side effects of one people start getting on others I was on three medications lithium plana Dean and klonopin for about eight years I was able to go off them once I started my daily Alexander Technique training and have never needed to go back you know Luke I have the semi humorously advanced a unified field theory of a Western degeneration and it has to do with these kinds of drugs that not feeling things as much as you do is closely correlated to not noticing things anymore or you know having a your brain reduced in its capacity for higher cognition you know I was profoundly affected after Hurricane Katrina when I read you know in reputable journals in several places that the US Army Corps of Engineers had been speaking to anyone who would listen and they spoke to people at all levels of government that New Orleans could not keep growing the way that it was without a significant and very expensive remake of its dike system that they warned that there will be a disaster if New Orleans keeps growing and the dike system is not strengthened enormous ly well New Orleans grew enormously the dike system was not strengthened and there was a disaster if the hurricane had been something like a mile closer to the center of New Orleans New Orleans would have been wiped off the map and I thought why isn't everyone making a big deal out of this this was a preventable disaster nobody did anything about it and then I started thinking about what Phoenix replacing Las Vegas is the fastest-growing city in the United States or vice versa I thought these cities are in the desert they have no water why would you encourage growth in places like that oh well the water comes from the Colorado River but the water table of the Colorado River has been falling and falling and falling and falling and even in places which are only semi desert like San Diego this but there was a you know I lived there they were in the middle of a water crisis which lasted for something like about a quarter of a century and it just hit me that there are very few people in the leadership class or even the aspiration a class who are not on some kind of mind-altering drug and it is affecting their ability to make decisions one way to square the circle perhaps is is diet like I recall Sam Harris he has like ideologically he wanted to be vegetarian and he tried being vegetarian for quite a while but he described just having like almost depressive symptoms as a result of it like he just couldn't feel the same on a vegetarian diet so we ended up switching back to eating meat despite being ideologically opposed to it and I think that like a lot of things come down to don't be weird like don't have diets that are weird don't have social situations that are weird like is polyamory thing that this you know picking up if something isn't tried-and-tested then try not to do it and if you're gonna be creative and be creative in like one way at a time don't be creative about diet and sexuality and and religion and community and all these things all at once and that's what's happening right now is that people are being creative about lots of things that you know even one of which going wrong can completely sink you sorry I'll just go quickly my life was immeasurably enhanced by embracing my PI tag gnosis a mental illness in that I realized that I couldn't trust my own judgments to the extent that I had been trusting them and so it helped me to live more in the middle of the hood so I was living very much on the outside of the hood kind of watching the hood Rumble by but instead by moving myself into the middle of the hood it dramatically helped me to make better better decisions because I was I was around normal people much more and also it inspired me to keep seeking help to keep reaching out keep trying things keep keep being open and and to realize that the habitual way that I went about things does not work back to you Kevin no I just but wouldn't you concede Lou that your ability to deal with this diagnosis as calmly as you did is closely related to you suffering from this these conditions in the first place very possibly also I just have had a life experience that you can you can get away with almost anything or at least ameliorate almost anything if you simply accept the truth you come out and say the truth so when I heard that diagnosis I immediately saw that it was true and so by embracing the truth or when when people say dress me down and I recognize that they're speaking the truth if I will accept that truth if if I will confess if I will make a full confession to people about what was going on when I be so badly that I found that it just dramatically reduces the temperature every people is like oh okay he understands he gets it he's he's articulating what I was thinking and and also it's also helped that I encourage people to develop safe words with me so that they can tell me when I'm becoming too much you know that way I haven't cured anyone with rough sex yeah but my favorite writer over in wha he was half joking but as he liked to say he was always always joking and always serious he said that whenever he was accused of anything he would deny it hotly and then try to lie his way out of it afterwards and this is what most people do because you know if someone had read me okay I've studied you this is my objective analysis of your condition if it was one third as bad as what you got I would have been I would have been in a rage how dare you you you don't know me you're only saying this because you want to get paid it so it's all a big racket oh and by the way I have ten different objections to everything you said that's the normal human reaction something yeah well my normal reaction is when I'm cornered is to lie try to lie my way out even this day that is my instinctive reaction like you catch me doing something that's wrong something that's completely contrary to what I stated publicly my immediate reaction will be to lie but then when I realize that I can't lie my way out of a situation then I then I just make a complete total you know clean breast of things because if I can't lie my way out then then I find it's more effective to just be completely honest yeah but the lie is the admission that a wrong was committed you know there are certain people that hey did you did you borrow my my digital tape recorder and then break it yeah well what do you mean yeah yeah okay yeah I borrowed it and I broke it and and then you realize that there's no dealing with a person like that if the person had said oh no I didn't I didn't break it you know when I returned it to you was working perfectly well I don't know something something must have happened that demonstrates shame at what a person has done yeah like if I borrowed your digital tape recorder and I broke it and I and I didn't tell you about it and then you brought that to my attention my immediate reaction would have been okay I'm busted I need to make it a complete 100 percent clean breast I'd say Kevin you're right I did break your digital tape recorder and I was too ashamed to admit that I broke it and I am in a really nasty financial position right now but I would like you to give me the opportunity to pay you $10 a week until I have given you enough money to buy a new one I'm ashamed of what I've done and that's why I didn't mention it so if I made that kind of clean breast and inside of making restitution to you then I think our friendship could could be saved you know Carl Krause who was a contemporary of Sigmund Freud and I guess we're gonna be talking about Sigmund Freud a little later in the show when we get to Cudahy he hated the psychoanalysis and its practitioners with a passion he called them the the soul doctors and he could see he was a big influence on Thomas's and he could see that the psychoanalysts were attempting and actually with great success to occupy the place in society well in Europe anyway that had previously been occupied by the Catholic Church because under the old dispensation you went to a priest into a confessional you confess your sins if the priest was happy with your confession you know he thought that it was honest and you were making an honest resolution not to commit the same sins again he would give you absolution now difference between a priest and psychiatrist is is that a priest gets his mandate from God and also the priest doesn't get anything out of it nothing he's not paid for this service and one contributes as much to the church as one feels one should there's no obligation for anyone actually in the Catholic Church to pay them anything I mean you were so young means your post too but I mean if you don't have any money if you're poor it's not held against you if you if you don't but yeah and actually I guess we can talk about this later about Freud's what lead Freud to invent psychoanalysis but no it's a it seems too little spoken about that again when I was growing up and if you watch like Hitchcock films movies like spellbound or psycho it's like oh yeah we're gonna bring in the psychiatrist here and he's gonna wrap everything up in a bow here he's gonna explain what happened and why now at the end of psycho that the famous last scene where we see Norman Bates and he's fully entered into the personality of his dead mother after the psychiatrist Simon Oakland tells us everything that happened we get this look from Norman Bates which says well you don't know the real story but it was just it's it's really remarkable to think back that not that long ago oh the Freudians had it all figured out there's a Freudian explanation for everything it happens and that just was abandoned it was completely abandoned no one speaks of Freudian psychology anymore no one and of course I I don't think that any of those Freudian psychologists were offering you know fifty thousand dollar refunds to their wealthy patients I also have to say that their real life has not provided anything close to the equivalent of psychotherapy you have someone's undivided attention in a way that I just have not experienced replicated in real life it in my real life relationships and friendships it's it's it's nothing like therapy the intensiveness of it and the opportunity to just spill everything and to not worry about the other person's feelings that there is something incredibly special and powerful that the experience just experientially in in psychotherapy Astra you have some thoughts yeah about the evolutionary aspect of depression or anxiety I think of it as anxieties kind of part of the fight-or-flight response and a lot of people don't realize that it's actually a three-step thing fight flight or freeze and that plays a lot into depression as well as people are chronically stressed it kind of wears down on them you know cortisol adrenaline that kind of stuff you're talking about some of those medications I think they block those receptors so you know basically these medications as kmg was saying generally they're meant to just kind of numb people treating the symptoms like band-aids without any understanding of the underlying pathology which is pretty interesting if you think about it I mean I don't but these diseases are fake necessarily it's just that they're poorly understood sometimes there's an immune system component for instance people with cancers or infections often report incredible depression to something they'd never experienced their whole life and then as their immune system is fighting something you know meningitis all sorts of different things they have this like debilitating experience sometimes that leaves a mark on people you know the immune system can cause tissue damage whether it's in the nervous system which I believe is the implication for this kind of psychiatric disease there's also nutritional things sometimes people will correct their diet or do massive doses of certain vitamins and it's been known to cure people with refractory bipolar or schizophrenia for like a decade or more people that had family members that were you know basically considered hopeless and then they were given like high levels of niacin or different kinds of things antioxidants know it sounds hokey but believe it or not sometimes severe nutritional efficiency will cause brain disease essentially and there's lots of alternative therapies that really just don't get much credit because we've got the pharmaceutical companies which I know it's a easy cliche thing to blame but they do have their representatives that you know go out in the field and push the product to the doctors offices and which with each new generation of patents and products they're you know is more and more of an incentive to to sell because the stakes are higher and higher you know the kind of medications in the 1980s they were the biggest profit makers the blockbusters were making like a billion a year now it's like 10 billion oh 20 billion a year so and there's more medications way more so they're talking about two different things there's like the social side of it and there's also talk therapy which I am not making any comment on that but when it comes to the pharmacology generally there's no understanding of the underlying cause and then you see an interesting pattern like if you look back in the 1950s and 60s people that were you know had the best doctors for instance Cary Grant who was an alcoholic you know they gave him LSD and he is a desire to drink alcohol basically just went away because he had some kind of you know profound experience changing his you know perspective and whatnot and also it had a physical effect the desire the cravings all that stuff went away and now on the ballot in Colorado in California they're talking about passing psilocybin or legalizing decriminalizing psilocybin they're using it in clinical trials or people with PTSD or end-stage cancer both in the United States and in Europe there's a lot of investigation into these things that were used a long time ago and then under Nixon were all criminalized under the war on drugs and essentially the pharmaceuticals like the SSRIs were always just cheap knockoffs of that it was working on the exact same receptor but instead of targeting it in a way that is more you know noticeable it basically just blunts them for years I got a lot of insights from my time in psychotherapy one that I learned early on was that people who developed the habit of lying in early-childhood are usually doing it to avoid physical punishment and that was exactly my case when I was a infant when I was a kid I was just smashed just knocked her out I was treated like a rag doll I was bounced off the walls and so to try to minimize the amount of times that I'd get hit I the habit of lying so I found that helpful also as a narcissist it's very typical to put people on a pedestal and to idolize people and to develop the attitude that if I can only connect with this person who I've idolized that their their glory will reflect on me and that was something of my dynamic of idolizing Dennis Prager and so I would talk about my falling-out with Dennis Prager quite a bit for about a year in therapy not the whole year on Dennis Prager maybe five percent of that year but anyway one one day my therapist says do you want to know what I think and I said yeah she said Dennis Prager so profoundly changed your life that you wanted to show him that you could affect his life too and and that's why you started your online biography of him and once I got that insight from my therapist I never needed to talk about Dennis Prager and therapy again it just I found that once I got inside on to why I was operating a certain way that then my system just immediately calmed down it resolved and I could move on okay Kyle you have some thoughts yeah there was this interesting paper by Dennis Miller where he talks about how it's necessary to evolve a protein strategy a strategy of unpredictability and this applies for things like evading predators but it also applies for social situations if you're if you play your cards if your cards are all you know laid flat on the table then you're not as interesting a conversation partner you're not as interesting a prospect and so like we we don't we are not going with the explicit about what we believe and what we want because it's bad socially like it just feels like sort of like like like taking taking a bunch of rocks and just shoving them on T at their person to just be it completely explicit about what one is and what one is feeling and so it's just I think a mark of mental health to be able to withdraw oneself and to show what one wants and know more of oneself and and so that's that's just something that I've been reflecting on a friend of mine believes that were in an epidemic of earnestness that modern society has taken away that the grease of the wheels of civilization the hypocrisy that used to allow people to get along with each other people just lay their cards on the table just shove everything onto their significant others and and don't hide the parts of themselves they need to hide and as a result of this things are falling apart people can't maintain relationships as well as they used to and I think that was a very interesting cake I'm not sure I like the notion that we need to be hypocritical but I definitely believe that we need to be able to hide ourselves need to be able to similar to cryptography we have to have certain information security otherwise we're open to exploitation and we put an undue you know vulnerability out there for others to exploit Kyle do you know how the information security industry works it's like being a firefighter without the proper budget without any you know gratitude in fact the companies hate you if you point out a breach you know there's no no incentives to report I think they're starting to pass some think there may be the FTC but like you know companies don't invest in security because they don't want to know they've been breached I think like some people do well it like everything comes down to sales there are red team people who managed to make a good living for themselves and managed to have fun with it but obviously yes companies are never happy to do have their flaws revealed and you have to understand that it has to be part of how you understand your yeah I'm just seeing a lot of common stuff exactly a lot of comments have stuff senses kind of inverted like you'd expect the information security department to be a paramount priority at all these fortune 500s and and they are they hire as much as they can but they don't really want to know what's happening and it's really just like constantly putting out fires and trying to keep up with the adversary which they really can never do so the name of the game is not information security it's information insecurity there's really everything's open so to speak okay I think it's time to move on Kevin I read on Twitter today that somebody has spent three hundred and thirty thousand dollars promoting Ben shapira's personal Facebook page over the past year trainer $30,000 promoting Ben shapira's personal Facebook page Kevin why would anyone want to do that because that person's last name was Mercer that's my guess isn't the Mercer family behind ben shapiro and his enterprise perhaps I know there's an evangelical Christian in Hollywood who's in business with Ben Shapiro Astra do you have any thoughts on why someone might spend three hundred and thirty thousand dollars promoting Ben Shapiro's personal Facebook page uh yeah you know I thought something interesting about Ben Shapiro I didn't realize the Iranian American expat community loves him not just among the Jewish members but among you know just all these people diaspora Iranians they there was a video of some super famous voice actress she did like all the 90's cartoons voices basically and into the 2000s and whatnot and she was in an uber with her friend and they were talking about Trump and the driver went off on her saying you know I came to this country and you know worked really hard and and he's building a wall and it's good you know the country needs to stay strong and you know just kind of general talking points to someone who really lost their country to a variety of things lack of a two-party system was one thing but anyway and the secret police was probably a big part of it but long story short she's parading this guy it's you know that she's gonna get this guy fired and you know he's giving his life's gonna be destroyed and I think she even threatened to call immigration on him I mean it just shows the real racism of these you know Democrats probably kind of big-time Hollywood people honestly and yeah he was talking about ben shapiro how he loves ben shapiro he's his neighbor he always he sees them and he's great so it's kind of a neocon thing I think because there's a lot of these diaspora Ronnie ins they you know they just have a grudge they do they'll take whatever side will get them their grudge delivered you familiar record promotions work or how they used to work yeah I'll tell you how it used to work in Britain that the the record companies are people paid to promote records for the record companies would go to record shops this was before the advent of sound scan where you know you have the barcode and you actually can find out how many records are sold so there was a problem under the old system of before sound scan of guys who work in record stores putting out their list of their top-selling records based more on the stuff that they liked and the stuff that was actually selling that's one of the reasons why when sound scan came in rap music was suddenly the most popular music in America and everyone was shocked because record clerks had been lying for years because they didn't like that stuff so much but anyway these jobbers would go to record stores and they buy they buy singles they go to every record store and they you know they buy a couple of singles three or four or five maybe and that was enough to get the records in the charts now this was illegal and in the United States you know people went to prison for it when I worked at a radio station in San Diego I had to sign this this book that I had to read and it was page after page of if you do this you will be fired if you do that you will be fired if you do this you will be disciplined and then fired because the radio industry in the record industry in the United States was very much scarred by paola scandals but the idea was that there are so many records being released that you know the good records they need a push that if people know about them if they get played on the radio if they get on top of the Pops then people will hear them and then they will genuinely go out and buy them and there's an expression associated with this and it may come from Ralph Gleason who is one of the cofounders of rolling stone you can't polish a turd that is to say you can give as much promotion as you like to anything or anybody but unless the product is good it won't ultimately be a success well I don't believe in that saying for the reason that we have these shows like The Voice and American Idol and essentially you put people on the air for week after week after week and you build up a mythos a narrative about them where they tell their heartwarming story or their sad story about their sick mother or how they were bullied at school and you'll never amount to anything and they discovered I mean Simon Cowell was the first to discover this you can make a star out of anybody so as far as ben shapiro goes i mean i'm not going to deny that he's a talented man in some respects but the idea is to get everyone talking about ben shapiro because there's a lot of people offering opinions offering written opinions offering spoken opinions appearing on youtube channels and on streams but if you get people you get the drumbeat of ben shapiro ben shapiro ben shapiro going then people think well that ben shapiro boy people are talking about him so i guess i better pay attention it's a you know it's a form of astroturfing yes among journalists when they they talk about which industry in los angeles is the dirtiest it's it's the music industry is regarded as dirtier than the porn industry dirtier than Hollywood Astra oh wow that's interesting I heard that ben shapiro is rumored to replace tucker carlson and his time slot and something about tucker moving to maine have you heard about this i've heard rumors that that's hood yeah Kevin if you were to sing one song on American Idol to to make your career what song would you choose how about Virginia plane that was on Barry this week you could put me on one of these shows yeah they did the same thing with comedians right they had this comedian contest and you get to see a comedian week after week after week and guess what this guy gets popular because millions of people have seen him on TV I mean Ed Sullivan used to do the same thing on his show there were acts like Stiller and Meara or Wayne and Shuster that he liked and he put them on dozens of times and guess what when you're on a TV show on Sunday evening when you know 30 40 50 million people see you over and over again a whole bunch of those people decide that they like you and want to put money in your pocket and Kevin what a heartwarming story would you tell I don't have any of my winning stories oh come on talk about your struggle with bulimia I don't know I don't I don't have it I if I had a struggle with bulimia believe me I wouldn't be speaking about it in public I find this just all horrifying I told you once before in the 70s this idea of the struggle session the Tom Wolfe wrote about in the me generation that struggle session went from being political to being personal that this became popular generally and I was with a group of people that I work with in my Union and were at the the Graduate Center bar at UBC and people start making these a really embarrassing personal disclosures and I thought I'm not going to do that so I made up a story I made out a harrowing story about how I had taken up with the girls because I wanted have sex with her and then I dumped her and I was exceedingly cruel to her and I cut her off pletely and she killed herself and I was curious about the reaction and the reaction was that all of these women in that group who hadn't paid me any attention certainly right then and there suddenly were tremendously interested in me and I could see what they were thinking oh my god I had no idea he's so dark and so deep and I thought people will believe anything okay Kevin California's governor Gavin Newsom is into ant oil billing of the coast of California any thoughts Kevin well doesn't he want to end all oil and gas drilling yes California has Silicon Valley and it has the entertainment industry but we see a similar thing in British Columbia where I live that the people who run this province the elite have no idea where the money comes from they also have no idea where their energy comes from I mean maybe they think it's all solar and we power it out places like California are making decisions such like there are going to be brownouts and blackouts in California real soon now and Emin left the srilanka bombers that turned out to be from the middle class or than the upper class going on with these Sri Lankan Obama's Isis has claimed responsibility Kevin well um these attacks were successful they found a bunch of pipe bombs that never went off but the death toll now is over 350 and they carried off a successful attacks in what more than half a dozen different places well you have to be intelligent to be able to do that right people always seem to be surprised when they find out that these suicide bombers and the like are educated people well yeah that's why you know the bombs didn't blow up blow up when they were getting ready to go to the places that they wanted to blow up you need a certain level of competence one of the reasons why we've been relatively lucky in the West visa vie terrorism is the people who've been engaged in this haven't been very good at it two reasons one incompetence and the second one being a lack of will we look at a situation like this and we think oh look these people who were well-off and they were educated and you know they look normal the dressed in suits and ties well they think they're going straight to heaven don't they they also think that they are engaged in a war a spiritual war a jihad about which they demonstrate long-term thinking and again long-term thinking is associated with intelligence short-term thinkers stupid people well if what I'm doing right now doesn't make an enormous difference there's no point I have to say no I don't want to compare Trump supporters to terrorists but all of this black pilling that we see on on the right so much of it is well we've been at this for two years and the Millennium hasn't arrived so what's the point it's notice is just gonna say these people are in it for the long haul yeah it's honest Luke left I don't know what happened when I think of the dissident right I don't you know I tried take a longer view like I considered the 80s and 90s what happened with the white nationalist and the militia movements the whole patcon I think it was called Operation and you know Luke and it kind of ties into the alt-right being more than the middle-class version of that and you can kind of compare it to Gladio in my opinion after the end of World War two the NATO countries and the intelligence agencies did a lot of work backing all these right-wing militias and groups out of different things like mafias or Masonic lodges and Italy and West Germany and all over I think even the IRA was some part of Gladio and the whole idea was is that it was supposed to be about invasion if the Soviets were to invade Western Europe there was this fallback force for like guerrilla fighting but in the case of the United States I don't know if they're doing it to just make a boogeyman to scapegoat for you know the the change in the Overton Window towards the left and policy and stuff and for the demographic changes or if there's some other purpose like if it's on like a 50-year timeline as Gladio was well if you want to look at the the separatist movement you want to call them that people like Randy Koresh a lesson was learned these people just wanted to be left alone and what they learned was the United States government will not leave you alone it just won't happen that what they will do is they will go to you oh you're a gunsmith yeah I'm gonna smooth I've got a job for you oh really what is it well I want you to modify this gun no I can't do that for you why not because that would be illegal it's against federal law to modify this gun in the way that you ask well come on please once you do this just this little thing please please please please please please please and then a few weeks later at the end after Andy Weaver in India yes just yeah just to get you off my back I will do this oh by the way you're under arrest yeah the events were more about sending a message and the effect on it was more about psychological effect than it was actually about the enforcement of that one group I think it's pretty obvious that you know I don't know why they were doing what they were doing but they seemed to want to neutralize any kind of legitimate militia you know make it so all these militias were considered radical because I don't think they always were I think if you go back a long time they were just kind of more like National Guard you know essentially like locally formed National Guard's is the idea of it but then they made it all a conspiracy oriented people like Alex Jones you know there was william luther Pierce and bill Cooper and all these different people giving ideology and I'm not saying that the Allred is like that exactly it's not it's just kind of like the bourgeoisie version of that another thing that happened with the flight to the suburbs so there were two reasons for the flight to the suburbs after the Second World War the first wave came from increased wealth and a desire for increased independence you move to the suburbs and you are moving away from close-knit communities you live in the cities close to extended families people know what you are doing your family knows what you were doing they will get reports

6 comments

  1. 10-years in therapy and converting?! Jesus, Luke! You waxed your carrot in the corner while people schtuped each other, you didn't murder kids. Let go of the guilt.

Leave a Reply

(*) Required, Your email will not be published