Negative Health Consequences of a Vegan Diet



hello freak bitches but then over the course of maybe three four or five years or so they started having real issues and I don't necessarily tie that to the diet because they remember feeling so much better yeah first switch to it so they don't think that what they're going what's happening three or four years later could be the cause of their problems I see this all the time with vegetarian and vegan diets that's exactly what I wanted to talk to you about yeah in in terms of that because most people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet you're gonna see some instant benefits because of the fact that you have much more nutrient-dense foods you're eating a lot of vegetables your your your changing your diet in a lot of ways to the positive or towards a positive away from what you were talking about those primary foods and Americans tend to eat all the processed sugar all the just nonsense and chicken tenders and all that crap that people eat which is just so goddamn common right so automatically over that you're gonna see some long-term benefits but one of the things that I've been reading is about people that have found that over the long term the lack this is contrary to what a lot of people think you know lack of saturated fat and cholesterol dietary cholesterol and saturated fat leads to hormonal imbalances leads to your body having a harder time producing sex hormones and all these different issues with your health where your body almost starts robbing itself to make up for the nutritional deficiencies of your diet yeah yeah I mean we talked about this before but humans are animals yeah we're omnivores and wait on it I saw a video on YouTube there's a guy that says there's no way that we are herbivores and then if we were honest I'm fuckin wacky dude who saying if you're really an are an omnivore you should be able to eat a squirrel just grab it and eat it raw and like ya know this is the most bizarre some strange arguments arguments yeah like we shouldn't drink milk because you know there were the only we're the only animal in nature in nature that drinks the milk of another animal yeah well we're the only animal nature that uses iPhones to celerity said that yeah what else appoint people do fly planes right movies call each other on the phone and tell each other how awesome milk is it's a ridiculous argument but so yeah getting back to their ideological arguments that more than scientific absolutely yeah yeah so it doesn't stand up to scrutiny but with with the vegetarian or vegan diet so there's lots of different ways to look at this so starting with an evolutionary perspective which I was getting at omnivores are opportunistic they will eat whatever is available and they'll eat the most nutrient-dense foods that are available if they have a choice and that's just again that's survival you know an animal that is able to utilize the nutrients that are available in its environment to its maximal advantage is gonna survive compared to one that doesn't that's basic evolutionary theory so if you study traditional peoples as far as I know still there's never been a traditional people you know group that has ever been identified that voluntarily followed a vegan or even vegetarian diet that I know of so that should tell you something right there and ironically the fact that you and I are even having this conversation this wouldn't even be happening if humans had not learned he's eaten meat basically there there are a lot of anthropologists who now believe that eating meat was essentially what made us human you know we came down out of the trees and we developed the development of tools that could crack bones to give us access to the marrow which is super nutrient dense or to slice meat which allowed us to be able to digest the meat more quickly number one and then to the development of fire which allowed us to cook meat and cooking makes the nutrients and meat more bioavailable allowed us to spend less time foraging for food so most large primates like gorillas or chimpanzees spend over 80% of their day foraging for food because most of the foods they eat are really not nutrient dense so they have to eat a boatload of stuff and just sit there and chew on the plants all day to get enough nutrients and and so this evolutionary theory is that we learned to extract and harvest much more nutrient-dense foods from animals fats and and other nutrients and the meats and organ meats and we had we could then spend a lot less of our time going around getting food which allowed us and then develop bigger brains and you know become human and have this conversation where we're talking about Vidia vegetarian and vegan diets yeah it is kind of interesting and it's also important to differentiate the difference between what you're saying is essentially the science behind the development of the human animal versus the moral and ethical debates that lead an environmental and environmental debates which is also moral for me can we think we can talk about that too which would which is what influences people to become vegetarians and vegans which I totally respect I understand what they're saying the real problem is when they distort the reality of the scientific findings the human animal and diet and that's an issue with a lot of people that are vegetarians and vegans that go on about how healthy they feel and about how awesome but they're not doing blood lipid profiles and when they do like Sam Harris who is from for ethical perspective for ethical reasons has tried a vegan diet and his health is suffering he's having real issues with his blood lipids yeah what can someone do if they want to follow that diet like what what is imperative as far as healthy fats as far as getting making sure that your body doesn't have but you're not taking in too many simple carbohydrates like what what what steps need to be taking place this is obviously not saying that you shouldn't follow vegan diet it shouldn't follow a vegetarian diet you should do whatever you want to do but there's got to be some ways to mitigate some of the health consequences right yeah there are and I believe that I agree with you that people should be free to make their own choices I've never pushed a particular diet you know people sometimes ask me how do you convince someone to go paleo I said I don't yeah I don't spend my time doing that if someone wants my advice and asked me I'll give it to them but we're not going around you know proselytizing for a particular way of eating so yeah let's break this down we talked about the evolutionary you know argument animal products and there's a scientific argument which now is what we're talking about yeah the issue with and we should even kind of distinguish between vegetarian and vegan diets because they're they're actually quite different and I think it is possible for some people to be healthy with a vegetarian you know diet I think it's a lot less likely with a vegan diet and I guess I would say it this way if you have if you're vegan and you're eating a vegan diet you need to have a perfect vegan diet to be healthy and you need to know what you're doing in terms of supplementation and how to meet the nutrient needs that aren't being met through diet and at least in my experience there very few that actually do it right when it's done right I think it's possible for some people to be to have to be healthy and thrive and that's obvious because there are people like rich roll who's like out there he's a vegan triathlete who's out there you know doing Sentry's and killing it yeah ultramarathon an amazing athlete and he's vegan and so you know you can't say that it's not working for him I can try to say that you're gonna looks like he's he's a great guy I've met him a couple of times and so certainly it works for some people but there are a lot of factors that determine whether it's going to work so one is is how well you do it two is you know whether you know what you're doing with supplementation in terms of getting the necessary nutrients three is genetics so let me there are genetic differences that determine how well we convert precursor nutrients into the nutrients that we actually need and let me give three examples to make this more real so one is epa and DHA these are these long-chain omega-3 fats that we've heard so much about that are crucial for brain function and cardiovascular function etc and we you primarily you get them by eating fish there are no sources of those in a plant-based diet except for algae but an algae is not that bioavailable right no and how many people do you know that eat algae I don't know every weekend with that you can is that famous green supplementation stuff but very few people are eating it so but you but there is something called alpha-linolenic acid which is in walnuts and flaxseed that's an omega-3 plant fat and and humans in theory can convert some of that plant based omega-3 into this long-chain EPA and DHA that we need but the thing here's the thing only about five to ten percent of that gets converted into EPA and even less to DHA like two to five percent so you have to be chugging tablespoons of flax oil in order to get as much BPA or DHEA that you would get from eating just a little bit of fish and that's if everything is going well because if you have deficiency of any nutrients that are involved in the enzymatic conversion of those plant-based fats into the long-chain fats then you won't make those conversions at that optimal rate it'll be even less and ironically many of those nutrients and nutrients that are not well represented in a vegan or vegetarian diet so that's one example another would be vitamin k2 which is a different form of vitamin K that's recently been discovered and it's really important for cardiovascular and bone health it basically puts make sure that calcium gets in our bones and our teeth and our hard tissues where it belongs and keeps it out of the soft tissues like our arteries where calcium would make our arteries hard and increase the risk of a heart attack so k2 is only really in animal foods with the exception of some fermented foods like natto which is a Japanese fermented soybean product that most people cannot stand it's it's a strong taste not very many people are eating it here to fear and and sauerkraut and kimchi have kk2 in it I say kaffir I've been saying kefir my whole life that's how I've never heard it that's how they say it where the fear is from well I fed every game every other person I've ever met says kefir so don't worry about okay if I'm saying kefir from now on are you sure here you'll be in the select few yes you can feel superior no look can I stop you real quick just because we're gonna I want to get a little bit onto this track of what you were describing about fish oil and that inversion and the difference between flaxseed oil what what can vegans take in order to sort of I recommend that vegans take microalgae because it has preformed DHA in it so you bypass that whole conversion issue I mean if they do take microalgae is that sufficient or how much difference is that then eating fish well it's quite different because fish have a lot of other nutrients aside from epa and DHA so team they have selenium they have a lot of other bioavailable nutrients but but and the other disadvantage is you have to take a boat load of algae i think so different products have different amounts but you know i think you'd have to take six to nine caps capsules a day of average algae supplement in order to meet your DHA that's not bad be done it could it's absolutely possible but that would be a good way to be healthy with the vegan diet that would be one way to address the shortcoming of no of lack of DHA on the vegan diet there are other shortcomings other nutrients like b12 which aren't you that's a big issue and and vegans need to be supplementing with that there's a myth out there that there are some plant sources of b12 like seaweed and spirit like spirulina and nutritional yeast but those actually contain kind of phony forms of b12 that can block the absorption of true b12 which is only found in animal products or supplements so a b12 supplement would be really important that's what's the source of a b12 supplement they it's synthetic it's synthetic I think but they just there's three forms of b12 there's there's hydroxocobalamin and methyl cobalamin or four forms that you can supplement with psionic apollomon and adenosylcobalamin and psionic cobalamin is a synthetic form and then the other ones are natural forms of b12 that you would encounter in food so people can supplement with any of those the the natural forms are better to supplement with because they're more bioavailable but definitely if a vegan I would recommend supplementing with b12 because there aren't any sources of it in the diet and studies have shown that 68% of vegetarians are deficient and b12 83% of vegans are versus just 5% of omnivores Wow so it's a big difference we're not you know and that's a factor in in many different issues right it's a factor in the production of muscle all production of all red blood cells depends on b12 and folate and so I mean that's pretty fundamental right yeah and then the myelin sheath requires b12 and this is why b12 deficiency can mimic this the signs of Parkinson's or Alzheimer's disease in people who are aging b12 deficiency happens in elderly people not because they're on a vegan diet because they have low stomach acid and they don't absorb the b12 as well as we do when we're younger and so a lot of people who are elderly who have you know symptoms of like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's they can sometimes be misdiagnosed with these conditions when they're actually just b12 deficient so it's a serious it's a real really important nutrient now how can vegans be assured that the b12 that they're buying does not have animal products or do do they have b12 when you buy the supplement physically yeah I'm not the best person to ask about that because I'm I'm not a vegan myself I was a macrobiotic vegan at one point what does that mean what's the difference that's deep in a macro maze I mean macrobiotics is a is a whole nother system of way of looking at food it's a job you know Japanese approach and you know what the whole reason I came to do what I'm doing now is so I got really really sick in my 20s I almost died and I spent about ten years just trying to get back to health what did you take from I was in Indonesia I mentioned earlier I traveled around the world and I was surfing and I got the classic tropical illness like amoebic dysentery Giardia and blastocysts hominis so two parasites and an amoeba and was just you know coming out of both ends delirious didn't remember really anything for three days well luckily there was enough one other Australian guy in the village that I was in who had some antibiotics and his medical kit that kind of brought me back from the brink but between the parasites and then the multiple rounds and antibiotics I had to take to get rid of the parasites after that it just wreaked havoc on my gut and it took me basically ten years to to recover ten years it was like the last decade now is it ten years because you approached it incorrectly and you could do it better now or was it just such a devastating round of disease that I think a little of both I mean so I was I'm 42 now and I was 25 when this first happened and we didn't know anything about the gut in the microbiome compared to what we know now like there was very little awareness on this is a shot at that point yeah just in 15 years it's just or 20 years it's crazy so you know I took way more antibiotics than I would have done in retrospect because that's what the doctors were prescribing and saying look you've got these parasites we've got to get rid of them this is how you do it and you know and I think the antibiotics if could have been like the treatment was probably worse than the disease for me I thought you know after the number of courses of antibiotics that I took so along that path I tried to spout every special diet you can possibly imagine including becoming a vegetarian and a vegan and then a macrobiotic vegan and them raw food I've been there done that and so I'm completely sympathetic like to all and I'm also a longtime meditator and Buddhist so I understand the ethical argument very well many of my friends don't eat meat I'm sympathetic I'm I care about the environment I'm sympathetic to that argument I'm certainly not you know I'm coming to this from a place of I think a pretty balanced view point and the the issues for me the reason why I eventually brought animal products back into my diet was that I it became clear that I needed to do that for my own health and I was able to reach a level of understanding and about the moral ethical and environmental choices that I was making that that I felt good about I want to go back to something you were saying about you know vegans and vegetarians and how to kind of optimize if you're doing that diet so two things that I wanted to address one was you asked about mollusks yeah I've actually argued that a vegetarian diet with shellfish and organ meats would be better than a paleo diet with with no shellfish and organ meats interesting and that's because of what we talked about earlier muscle needs organ meats and shellfish are the two most nutrient dense classes of foods like I I've just been finishing the curriculum for my clinician training program where I'm you know going through systematically every nutrient and I'm looking at in nutrition data what the most the highest food sources of those nutrients are and I wish I had the thing to just lay it out and show you but you know in almost every case it's an organ meat or a shellfish that's the highest source of that whether you're talking about b12 or iron or copper or zinc or folate it's always beef liver chicken liver clams oysters etc and so if someone was a veggie you know vegetarian who's willing to fudge a little bit and eat just organ meats and shellfish they I think that would be a healthier approach than someone who's just eating lean muscle meat organs get tossed out a lot it's it's really it's a real problem in the hunting world where when people got an animal they leave the gut pile and there's even a gutless method that a lot of people use when they take on a big-game animal like an elk or something that they just they leave it behind they leave the heart they leave the liver but I saw this document around wolves and was really fascinating was one of the ways that they distinguish who the Alpha is the Wolf Pack is the alpha wolf is one who eats the liver the liver yeah there are other animals that that's true yeah and I think that was true and a hundred other societies as well and someone was trying to say to me well well livers processed toxins don't you think they'd be filled with toxins that's a common misconception the liver processes them but this the fat stores them so if you're concerned about toxins and food you should make sure that you're eating you know pasta raised organic fats like butter and cream and thing if you eat dairy products animal fat grass fed grass if you eat lard or tallow or anything like that it should come from pasture raised animals because the fat is where toxins are stored the liver processes them so when you're I'm sorry so when you're eating anything that comes from an animal that's been fed grain you're dealing with an animal that has the same sort of inflammation issues that a person has from processing things that it's not naturally supposed to process like processed wheat and bleached flour and things has besides antibiotic residue right yeah so when you're taking in those animal products that we traditionally do whether it's butter or milk or dairy or cheese or things along those lines when you're taking those from an animal that's eating grain you are actually getting the fats so your your it's less healthy than actually eating the liver of that animal yeah it may be I mean the liver is more nutrient dense anyways but pasture-raised animal fats have a lot more nutrients than conventionally raised fats because the animals are eating grass and grass is way more nutrient dense than the grains that you know if conventional animals are fed also the Omega threes and sixes are different yeah the ratio omega-6 is the same but omega-3 is three or four times higher in pasture AIDS animals why does it make it six assign it's a good question it's it used to be you know the the kind of consensus was that omega sixes would be higher and omega threes would be lower but it actually looks like mega six is constant and i'm three is higher the omega-3 is higher because the grass probably has more alpha linolenic acid which is the plant-based form that day then animal does the conversion I mean that's the thing that's really interesting to to consider here too is humans are really inefficient at making these conversions of these less active nutrients to the more active ones we started talk about it with EPA and DHA okay okay vitamin k1 is what's converted into k2 cows are experts doing that they're really good at it humans not so much so when we eat the animal the animals basically done the work for us we get the preformed final nutrient that we need rather than having to do those steps ourselves and this is a fun we're starting to rubble is this a function of the adaptation of people developing while eating these animals so yeah beta-carotene is another example that's a precursor to active vitamin a retinol and beta carotenes have some benefits in our bodies but retinols is the real thing you know what we need more than anything and that conversion is as low as 3 to 5 percent and some people and in fact there are there are some who don't make the conversion at all and those are the people who turn orange after a carrot juice fast it happens my friend Andy used to drink so much carrot juice that the inside of his hands and his skin would turn orange yeah so he probably wasn't good at converting beta-carotene into retinol because we should be able to do that but some people can't but isn't just the mass quantities I mean it could be too but if retinol is only really present in organ meats and pasture-raised fats it's not even really in muscle meats like you know lean ground beef or chicken broth yeah boneless chicken breasts or so in order to get retinol we need to consume these pasture-raised fats or we need to consume organ meats and as you pointed out we're gonna meats have really fallen out of favor in the US and and this is only recent like I bet you our grandparents ate a lot more organ meat than we eat still in some you know many parts of the world they still eat organ meats more dry we do yeah liver and onions is a very famous dish yeah yeah he's hard and you'll see like within the paleo primal kind of world the organ meats are making a comeback because we understand now with the nutrient density of these foods is and there's less now even in the mainstream world there's less of a solid argument that can be made about least having cholesterol or you know high levels of saturated fat that would prevent us from eating them now what would be the difference in terms of the nutritional density of mollusks versus organ meat so if you were trying to if you have a vegetarian or a vegan who's on the fence and you know you made these arguments that are very rational and logical and you said look what mollusks are essentially a very very primitive form of life that doesn't feel pain and you could argue that there's more evidence that some plants feel pain and plants also have some very intense level of communication where they're there there's a really interesting addition of Radiolab recently where they went into this where they sort of are trying to understand the difference between the not the difference rather but the the complicated relationship between these different plants and the mycelium in the soil and all the different fungus in the soil that also acts as sort of a transportation method the various nutrients and minerals and they're actually pulling these minerals out of the rock and they're getting sugars from the plants and they're exchanging them from minerals and that there's this really complex interaction that we have sort of just looked at and said oh there's dirt and there's plants in it but there's a lot going on between these various life-forms and one of them being fungus which again is closer to an animal than it is to a plant but is imperative for the life of these plants right and then somehow another they're actually even sharing resources where if they find or they're allotting resources to certain plants that are more deficient or they're trying to channel resources to them so there's some form of communication an exchange here yeah that's that's intelligence right yeah I mean Paul Stamets has done amazing work yes in general yeah I would say that that's a really good option I mean when you look at nutrients like specific nutrients that it goes back and for between liver and you know organ meats and shellfish and some some nutrients organ meats are higher like vitamin A or iron in other nutrients shellfish are generally higher like with zinc or copper but certainly even even shellfish are higher in almost all of the key nutrients that we need then a lot of the plant-based food alternatives that they would be choosing from and so if a vegan was willing to eat mollusks I would say that that would be a great idea and the benefit there is you don't need to eat a lot like three ounces a single serving can meet your copper requirement for the entire week oh wow this one time same with iron I think if I'm going off the top of my head I'll iron and zinc you can nearly meet your entire weekly requirement so it's not like you have to eat a ton of these things you know you have a serving of clams once a week and you have a serving of oysters once a week you know on top of and getting as much nutrient density as you can that should do that's b12 that's iron that sink that's copper EPA and DHA the long-chain omega-3 fats are in these in these mollusks because as well in it they're typically low on the toxicity scale – they're not they don't turn out a lot of mercury they don't bioaccumulate a lot of toxins compared to some other you know predator species of fish that are higher in the food chain that accumulate a lot of toxins is there any benefit to eating them cooked versus raw one way or the other well you know there's out there is the chance of disease in you know eating raw oysters I think it's pretty minimal compared to some other risks but it's it is there and cooking you know mitigates that definitely I think in general cooking makes the nutrients and meat and animal products more bioavailable rather than less and that's in vegetables it's it depends on the vegetable and and the method of cooking but it's a mix it's more of a mixed bag but within meats it generally improves about so it really is in a lot of ways an ideological issue where it's sort of framed that you know you don't want to contribute to suffering but these things really don't suffer there yeah but even there you know as we talked about you're gonna continue to contribute to suffering and potentially more if you're looking on the scale of individual lives and it might sound like this is nitpicky but it's not we're talking about actual lives you know and and then you have to start evaluating like is a cow more attention or worth you know the life of the cow worth more than the life of a rabbit or a ball or the kind of animals that are being killed and in the you know in the production of these plant foods it's a real question

33 comments

  1. Love Joe Rogan, but this is not very good information. Could debate every single one of these statements made.

  2. For all you moral vegans out there: Take a look at how big agriculture has destroyed animal habitat over the last century. Do a little research on harvest methods that take millions of innocent lives of mice, ground nesting birds, moles, squirrels, rats, crows, etc. Remember that hunting and fishing pays for the majority of wildlife and habitat protection. Understand that hunters live by the code of fair chase, while you vegans chop down living vegetables and devour them with no regard for their feelings. At least my meat had a chance to run. Your GMO corn never had a chance. This moral high ground argument of yours is weak and disingenuous at best. So get off your high horse and keep your veganism religion to yourselves.

    🐂🐖🐏🐇🐓🐟🦌🐻🦆🦃🦀

  3. This was extremely valuable. That was a lot of information, much of it I'd never been introduced to before.

  4. There are way too much processed food in vegan diets for it to be healthy. If you are required to supplement to make a diet work it's obviously not that good…

  5. Sooo. I should look into supplements cause I dislike fish? He said primarily from fish meaning some these…nutrients are in chicken,beef,venison? Never mind. Look who I’m asking? I’m joking. I’m sure there are knowledgeable people on here. I’m just thinking out loud…with words on a screen. Lol

  6. I'm 55 and really like liver and onions but my 13 year old daughter thinks I'm a cruel freak for eating liver 🙂

  7. Hey, what's up, Joe. I really like your stuff and I hope you acknowledge one day that my channel exists.

  8. How is the milk argument nonsensical?? I switched off there …if you're going trying to debunk 'nonsense' at least use something more persuasive than your half baked 'logic' lol

  9. I usually love to listen to Joe Rogans podcast but sometimes you cant take him and the guest serious, like with this episode for example. Chris Kresser is an acupuncturist, anti-flu vaxxer, cholesterol denialist and promoter of the paleo diet. Kresser has made a number of dangerous health suggestions, for example, he has argued against flu vaccination and recommends that pregnant mothers drink raw milk and skip the vitamin K shot for their newborns. He thinks that everyone should eat a high-fat paleo diet.
    Why would anyone go to Kresser for diet or medical advice? He's an acupuncturist, for Pete's sake! His whole livelihood is based on a prescientific system of mythological qi and meridians. His website offers inaccurate information and questionable advice on diet, diabetes, heart disease, thyroid disorders, skin health, heartburn, and depression. He even offers a paleo detox program.
    If Joe wants to talk about the nutritional aspect of veganism then he should invite someone like Dr. Greger on

  10. When YouTube first recommended your videos I thought that they would be more in the lines of Howard Stern or jack ass, but I have been very pleasantly surprised to find out that they are more like coast to coast with very intriguing topics and that you know a lot about all of this things that regular every day people have no clue about!

  11. a little light in the shorts this fraud….is….and just what makes this fool think part of a vegan diet ISNT MISO…AND GREEN ALGAE FOODS??

  12. In Mexico when they slaughter cows. They keep the brains. Eyes. Tounge. Heart. Spleen. Liver. Stomach linking. Foot and tail tail. Yup. Besides. The steak ribs n other cuts

  13. A large part of the issue with vegetarian and vegans is the separation of the population from the farm. I grew up on a farm I know where my meat comes from I know how to raise it and how to kill it. Farmers are the caretakers of this world we care for the animals and for the land that raises them. Because that is how we make our living and raise our family.

  14. I dunno about Veganism, but Joe says sat fat and cholesterol is good.

    The American Heart Association recommends limiting saturated fats – which are found in animal-based foods. Decades of sound science has proven it can raise your “bad” cholesterol and put you at higher risk for heart disease. Obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc. also are at higher risk vs. protein from non-meat sources.

    Farming is better for its workers/the environment/economics/health/compassion/better karma from non-meat. You can raise crops/plants/maybe some cows, & get back what they yield while avoiding suffering/killing. We don't need cruel factory farms. Plants don't have the brain, central nervous system, or evolved consciousnesses like animals/humans.

    It's a myth we evolved from eating animals and even if you disagree, it doesn't mean we must, or should, eat them now. Many things happened before, or now, that isn't right for modern humans (e.g. cannibalism). Animals, even babies, are treated like (or worse) Africans in the middle passage slave trade. The past should help us learn from WRONGS to stop them faster.

    Having free will to choose doesn't mean any choice is ok. that's basically "might makes right" thinking. Eating animals violates: the non-aggression principle, being reasonable, being ethical, and the golden rule. You can't be for equality then treat animals so harshly different just cause they were born with a somewhat weaker brain/body. that's like eating people born mentally and physically weak.

    The major religions confirm this, & allow killing animals in EXCEPTIONAL situations (e.g. self-defense, starving during a flood with no other choice etc.) & anyway, forbid us from allowing the cruelty where (at most places which modern society gets its meat from) babies are stolen from the mother, cramped somewhere 24/7 in hellish conditions with little or no protection from cruelty, only to be dragged or shocked by a prod, just to be sent to be hammered in (literally) then cut deep in their throat and hung upside down to bleed to death. That's not counting if you get cruel workers, or if you get really ill, and you're left to starve to death. I'm not even going in detail or mentioning all the problems, and words can't describe it anyway.
    If anybody wants details/sources with science or religion, tell me where to email 1 chapter in a book I wrote, which has all that. It also mentions examples of many tasty food that taste like meat (e.g. MorningStar burgers found in many grocers). For those not open minded, who don't try to listen or understand the truth, who just wana argue, or insult etc. I'm too busy for that. So I pray you learn what's right, before more animals suffer in the way you'll probably be reborn to suffer equally or worse.
    So far, every1 who has tried flavors from the below link, has thanked me and is still eating 1 or more flavors. try it and let me know:
    https://www.morningstarfarms.com/where-to-buy.html

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